I also hated Catcher in the Rye. Oddly enough, I connected with Lev Grossman's version of Holden (Quentin) in The Magicians, though. I guess that underscores the "matter of taste" part of the conversation.
I just reread Catcher, thinking I would be annoyed by teen melodrama, but nope! Still held up for me. If anything, I think I appreciated it on a different level 🤷🏻♀️
I agree. I really am enjoying the count (I’m behind). I think in order to enjoy it you have to like that genre of writing (e.g. Proust, Knausgaard). There’s a story within the story that I’m really enjoying.
Strongly disagree about Monte Cristo. I read an unabridged version and then read an abridged version later on, and I was pretty surprised to discover that a very key scene at the end of the book had been removed from the abridged version (it's how the Count handles one of his three main enemies, and is a key piece of Edmond's arc in the story as he realizes that revenge is NOT the ultimate answer). The Count of Monte Cristo is absolutely epic, and I always recommend people to ONLY read the unabridged version. But of course, to each their own, and I just appreciate the opportunity to discuss awesome books! Thanks for this newsletter and encouragement to read great books!
So many bad opinions here. Huckleberry Finn is the great American novel. Still a work of genius. Not sure I can take anyone seriously with this view of that book!
😆 I take books both very seriously and very lightly. How we view art is such a matter of taste and life experience that I just can’t judge anyone else’s opinion on a specific book.
I can understand your perspective. I was also thinking of Latin saying: “in matters of taste, there can be no disputes.” 😉
I do think, however, that there are those books out there that people SHOULD try to read. Last year, my daughter was assigned Frankenstein to read and hated it, but I encouraged her to finish it because of its importance (e.g. horror literature, written by a women, important aspects of women’s rights, et al). She still hates it, but at least she can tell me why. 😉
Yeah, totally. Even with classics I don't *like*, I can appreciate their importance to our culture. And I can think of plenty that everyone should read in high school or college, but not necessarily after that. Things also hit us so differently depending on where we are at in life.. it's a crapshoot sometimes.
Yeah, it’s like those books that you start reading and you think “I’m not ready for this…” and you put it away for a few years and wait until you’re in the right space and then you love it.
Prepared to get some disagreements about the comments I'll get for my choice....
Finally read War and Peace, with help of Jeremy and the Big Read. I'm glad I read it, it has been on my "To Read" list for 20+ years. Although the parts about the actual characters were entertaining and often insightful, there was way too much philosophizing about Napoleon, war, etc.... He made his point about the futility of war and the lack of genius in Napoleon early but then just kept repeating it. I felt the 1200 pages could easily have been cut in half and still communicated his views. I don't recommend it to my book reading friends. Watch a movie version to get the storyline and move on to other books.
Lest I be deemed an overall Tolstoy critic....I thought Anna Karenina was an insightful and bold exploration of the misogyny that women faced (and still face) that was written at a time when few people and even fewer men were writing about it.
Bleak House by Charles Dickens I am reading it with a Patreon group (with Annie Jones of The Bookshelf in GA) and I don’t think anyone really likes it. We read The Count last year and I didn’t love it but I liked it far more than Bleak House. I am an avid reader but the list of classic I have enjoyed is pretty short…
Hemingway for me. Dislike everything from him I've read except a handful of short stories. I find his terse, showily "no-nonsense" writing style off-putting and strangely pretentious (despite attempting to project the opposite). Also: some of the most one-note female characters in all of classic literature. I also struggled with Huckleberry Finn, although it was less of a slog than Tom Sawyer (which, going in, I thought would be his fun one). Pudd'nhead Wilson is the only Twain novel that's ever engaged/interested me. I want to read his nonfiction someday, and see if that appeals more.
I find good English teachers can really unlock some of these less accessible classics. I probably would have rejected The Scarlett Letter if not for the wonderful English teacher I had in high school (although it's criminal to make students read that tedious, unnecessary Custom-House introduction), and I had a professor who really made Shakespeare's work come alive for us students.
I disagree about Don Quixote (at least part I), but I love that you're doing this and it's tempting me to go back and read Quixote with your criticism in mind. In any case, just wanted to say I enjoy your takes, and I'm sure I would enjoy them less if we agreed on everything;)
There are definitely some unforgettable scenes in Don Quixote, which are now cultural touchstones (tilting at windmills, and what not). Again, though, when it comes to satire, it's best in small packages IMO. :) I'd also be curious to re-read, frankly, because it's been about a decade.
I'm sure you're right, and I haven't read it in years. For me, one of the most memorable scenes is some dinner where Don has a sudden moment of apparent clarity and delivers this disquisition on whether the bravest person in the world is the student or the soldier. If I recall, he decides it's specifically the first person running across the plank to board an enemy ship at sea.
Well, we disagree. I personally would not suggest that someone read an abridged version, (unless perhaps it was an authorized abridgement, such as with The Gulag Archipelago). Otherwise I see an abridgement as a disservice to the author for the sake of indulging the shrinking attention span of modern readers.
I'd venture a guess that the condemnation of Huck Finn has more to do with it's incompatibility with modern views than anything else.
For me, The Catcher in the Rye, Great Gatsby, Lord of the Flies.... All overrated.
I actually think the language and style of Huck Finn are really hard for modern readers to digest. Which isn't necessarily a good/bad thing, it just is. Language changes and that one has become really tough to read in any kind of enjoyable/flowing way (for me, at least).
Ah, Gatsby! One of my all-time favorites. :) I totally get why people don't enjoy it though. It can feel over-written despite it being under 200 pages.
I agree on the count which I read a few years ago. This was the first big read book I skipped. I just couldn’t put the time in to read it again. I’m looking forward to starting up again in November.
My least favorite classic is the Scarlet Letter. I think being forced to read it in high school when I had zero interest in it ruined it for me. Does anyone disagree and think I should give it another shot?
I've long thought that many of the required reads in high school ruin the classics for lots of people. Many high school students lack the perspective to fully understand the themes and the importance of the books. The end result are generations who "don't like" these great classic novels.
I think there's also an element of certain classic books being important in the history of literature, but not necessarily important in our modern culture. Or they speak to such a defined time and place that modern readers don't find the same value. All valid ideas... in general, I've also matured enough as a reader to understand that I can find a book valuable while not *enjoying* it. That takes a long time to learn.
I see it all the time! (I'm a high school teacher, and have had this conversation with so many teens! I encourage them to revisit the books later in life.)
Candide by Voltaire. No need to get an abridged version - just read the first chapter and you will understand the whole book. It's like the author hits you over the head with the same exact point over and over again. It's not even funny satire if it's that repetitive
I must be a bit alone in thinking that Dracula is deeply overrated as a book. Coppola's movie from the 90s was a terrific and surprisingly faithful adaptation of a bad book with a great story. I'm also surprised to not see Old Man and the Sea in the thread. I think it's a great read but I know it tends to be high on the list of "ugh" books.
I have taught Huck Finn for more than 20 years--because even though I am the Chancellor I can get outvoted. I struggle to find the redemption value. We start with child abuse and a run away. We move to making fun of religious tradition of the day, we paint a vaguely positive spin on how women and people of color are treated and we hero-worship a kid who performs larceny, fraud, and disrespect. Yes, it taught colloquialism maybe empathy for the underdog (dig deep) but does that justify all the fodder?
Pride and Prejudice. I’ve slogged through it twice. I still don’t get the hype.
I find Austen rather witty — I’ll give her that — but her books are definitely a bit of a slog for me too.
I really liked Sense and Sensibility though.
So the Count is my favorite book, so I can’t agree with you guys. You can just be wrong 🤣
As for overrated classics:
Catcher in the Rye.
Don Quixote (so right Jeremy!)
Anything by Dostoevsky (but I LOVE Tolstoy)
To each their own. The beauty of any art, really.
Does anybody like Catcher these days? I have yet to find someone.
Wha!? I love Catcher! You have to grow up in a dysfunctional family to understand it though. 😂😂 You’re too normal! 😉
I also hated Catcher in the Rye. Oddly enough, I connected with Lev Grossman's version of Holden (Quentin) in The Magicians, though. I guess that underscores the "matter of taste" part of the conversation.
Interesting.. good to know! I haven't read Grossman.
I just reread Catcher, thinking I would be annoyed by teen melodrama, but nope! Still held up for me. If anything, I think I appreciated it on a different level 🤷🏻♀️
I agree. I really am enjoying the count (I’m behind). I think in order to enjoy it you have to like that genre of writing (e.g. Proust, Knausgaard). There’s a story within the story that I’m really enjoying.
Colleen I was really hoping you’d be in the zoom call to hear you gush about Monte Cristo and understand why it’s your favorite book!
Ohman! I missed the zoom call!!!!! Dang it! Well, I’ll gush ANY time 😂
Strongly disagree about Monte Cristo. I read an unabridged version and then read an abridged version later on, and I was pretty surprised to discover that a very key scene at the end of the book had been removed from the abridged version (it's how the Count handles one of his three main enemies, and is a key piece of Edmond's arc in the story as he realizes that revenge is NOT the ultimate answer). The Count of Monte Cristo is absolutely epic, and I always recommend people to ONLY read the unabridged version. But of course, to each their own, and I just appreciate the opportunity to discuss awesome books! Thanks for this newsletter and encouragement to read great books!
Good point! I haven't read the abridged Monte Cristo, so I'm definitely curious what gets cut.
So many bad opinions here. Huckleberry Finn is the great American novel. Still a work of genius. Not sure I can take anyone seriously with this view of that book!
😆 I take books both very seriously and very lightly. How we view art is such a matter of taste and life experience that I just can’t judge anyone else’s opinion on a specific book.
Amen!
I can understand your perspective. I was also thinking of Latin saying: “in matters of taste, there can be no disputes.” 😉
I do think, however, that there are those books out there that people SHOULD try to read. Last year, my daughter was assigned Frankenstein to read and hated it, but I encouraged her to finish it because of its importance (e.g. horror literature, written by a women, important aspects of women’s rights, et al). She still hates it, but at least she can tell me why. 😉
Yeah, totally. Even with classics I don't *like*, I can appreciate their importance to our culture. And I can think of plenty that everyone should read in high school or college, but not necessarily after that. Things also hit us so differently depending on where we are at in life.. it's a crapshoot sometimes.
Yeah, it’s like those books that you start reading and you think “I’m not ready for this…” and you put it away for a few years and wait until you’re in the right space and then you love it.
Right there with you on Monte Cristo. Finished it earlier this year, and that ending was a big disappointment.
Catch-22. I kept feeling like Heller was trying to show off with big words when simpler words would have been a better choice.
Ha! Catch-22 is next up for my IRL book club.. I'll be reading it here for the first time in a couple of weeks.
Prepared to get some disagreements about the comments I'll get for my choice....
Finally read War and Peace, with help of Jeremy and the Big Read. I'm glad I read it, it has been on my "To Read" list for 20+ years. Although the parts about the actual characters were entertaining and often insightful, there was way too much philosophizing about Napoleon, war, etc.... He made his point about the futility of war and the lack of genius in Napoleon early but then just kept repeating it. I felt the 1200 pages could easily have been cut in half and still communicated his views. I don't recommend it to my book reading friends. Watch a movie version to get the storyline and move on to other books.
Lest I be deemed an overall Tolstoy critic....I thought Anna Karenina was an insightful and bold exploration of the misogyny that women faced (and still face) that was written at a time when few people and even fewer men were writing about it.
Appreciate your thoughts Cheryl! I definitely get why W&P isn't for everyone. It's *a lot* to get through.
Bleak House by Charles Dickens I am reading it with a Patreon group (with Annie Jones of The Bookshelf in GA) and I don’t think anyone really likes it. We read The Count last year and I didn’t love it but I liked it far more than Bleak House. I am an avid reader but the list of classic I have enjoyed is pretty short…
Haven't read that one!
Hemingway for me. Dislike everything from him I've read except a handful of short stories. I find his terse, showily "no-nonsense" writing style off-putting and strangely pretentious (despite attempting to project the opposite). Also: some of the most one-note female characters in all of classic literature. I also struggled with Huckleberry Finn, although it was less of a slog than Tom Sawyer (which, going in, I thought would be his fun one). Pudd'nhead Wilson is the only Twain novel that's ever engaged/interested me. I want to read his nonfiction someday, and see if that appeals more.
I find good English teachers can really unlock some of these less accessible classics. I probably would have rejected The Scarlett Letter if not for the wonderful English teacher I had in high school (although it's criminal to make students read that tedious, unnecessary Custom-House introduction), and I had a professor who really made Shakespeare's work come alive for us students.
Yes, good teaching can really make some of these come alive.
I disagree about Don Quixote (at least part I), but I love that you're doing this and it's tempting me to go back and read Quixote with your criticism in mind. In any case, just wanted to say I enjoy your takes, and I'm sure I would enjoy them less if we agreed on everything;)
There are definitely some unforgettable scenes in Don Quixote, which are now cultural touchstones (tilting at windmills, and what not). Again, though, when it comes to satire, it's best in small packages IMO. :) I'd also be curious to re-read, frankly, because it's been about a decade.
Always enjoy your takes as well!
I'm sure you're right, and I haven't read it in years. For me, one of the most memorable scenes is some dinner where Don has a sudden moment of apparent clarity and delivers this disquisition on whether the bravest person in the world is the student or the soldier. If I recall, he decides it's specifically the first person running across the plank to board an enemy ship at sea.
Well, we disagree. I personally would not suggest that someone read an abridged version, (unless perhaps it was an authorized abridgement, such as with The Gulag Archipelago). Otherwise I see an abridgement as a disservice to the author for the sake of indulging the shrinking attention span of modern readers.
I'd venture a guess that the condemnation of Huck Finn has more to do with it's incompatibility with modern views than anything else.
For me, The Catcher in the Rye, Great Gatsby, Lord of the Flies.... All overrated.
I actually think the language and style of Huck Finn are really hard for modern readers to digest. Which isn't necessarily a good/bad thing, it just is. Language changes and that one has become really tough to read in any kind of enjoyable/flowing way (for me, at least).
Ah, Gatsby! One of my all-time favorites. :) I totally get why people don't enjoy it though. It can feel over-written despite it being under 200 pages.
I like Gatsby quite a lot but I haven’t reread it in ages.
I agree on the count which I read a few years ago. This was the first big read book I skipped. I just couldn’t put the time in to read it again. I’m looking forward to starting up again in November.
My least favorite classic is the Scarlet Letter. I think being forced to read it in high school when I had zero interest in it ruined it for me. Does anyone disagree and think I should give it another shot?
I've been meaning to revisit Scarlet Letter — I haven't read it since high school.
I've long thought that many of the required reads in high school ruin the classics for lots of people. Many high school students lack the perspective to fully understand the themes and the importance of the books. The end result are generations who "don't like" these great classic novels.
I think there's also an element of certain classic books being important in the history of literature, but not necessarily important in our modern culture. Or they speak to such a defined time and place that modern readers don't find the same value. All valid ideas... in general, I've also matured enough as a reader to understand that I can find a book valuable while not *enjoying* it. That takes a long time to learn.
Thanks Scott!
All great points, too!
I strongly agree Scott. My own children, when forced in school to read beyond their maturity level, came away with a strong dislike of "classics".
I see it all the time! (I'm a high school teacher, and have had this conversation with so many teens! I encourage them to revisit the books later in life.)
I think some of the modern adaptations of The Scarlet Letter are amazing. Hester was my favorite!
Of mice and men. Ugh.
Totally agree. Hate it.
Whaaaat? Just kidding a little bit. That and Catcher in the Rye were faves in high school and I've been meaning to reread both.
Candide by Voltaire. No need to get an abridged version - just read the first chapter and you will understand the whole book. It's like the author hits you over the head with the same exact point over and over again. It's not even funny satire if it's that repetitive
I must be a bit alone in thinking that Dracula is deeply overrated as a book. Coppola's movie from the 90s was a terrific and surprisingly faithful adaptation of a bad book with a great story. I'm also surprised to not see Old Man and the Sea in the thread. I think it's a great read but I know it tends to be high on the list of "ugh" books.
I have taught Huck Finn for more than 20 years--because even though I am the Chancellor I can get outvoted. I struggle to find the redemption value. We start with child abuse and a run away. We move to making fun of religious tradition of the day, we paint a vaguely positive spin on how women and people of color are treated and we hero-worship a kid who performs larceny, fraud, and disrespect. Yes, it taught colloquialism maybe empathy for the underdog (dig deep) but does that justify all the fodder?